Graf Dracula fährt Gräf & Stift

Obusfahrerin · Deine Goldenen Weichen:

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manni · Goldene Weichen des Users:

So groß ist das Tramnetz doch nicht - 26 Fahrzeuge. Aber das Obusnetz ist mit 135 Fahrzeugen durchaus respektabel - fast doppelt so groß wie Salzburg.

manni · Goldene Weichen des Users:

Jö, was fährt denn da wider Erwarten doch durch Brasov?

Mit herzlichem Dank an Armin Fischer, der das in einem rumänischen Obusforum unter http://trolleybus.3xforum.ro/post/219/1/accidente/ aufgestöbert hat!

Zillerkrokodil · Goldene Weichen des Users:

Hallo Manni !

Hab im angeführten Forum gesucht und noch ein weiteres Foto gefunden :

Bin auf "cauta" gegangen und habe "Innsbruck" eingegeben .

Grüße Zillerkrokodil

(Editiert von Zillerkrokodil am 05.11.2005 22:39)

Obusfahrerin · Deine Goldenen Weichen:

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Wolfgang · Goldene Weichen des Users:

Auf dem ersten Bild sind die Stromabnehmer oben.

Aber schön, dass es für die Busse noch eine Verwendung gibt.

Obusfahrerin · Deine Goldenen Weichen:

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sLAnZk · Goldene Weichen des Users:

... +grmpf+ ich habe schon rumänen getroffen in meinem leben... diese leute haben im durchschnitt mehr geschmack als unsereiner, folgerichtig dürften sie es als geschenk ansehen, in einem der wunderschönen gräf&stift herumkutschieren zu können. der umstand, daß den sLAnZk bislang keine dankesbriefe erreicht haben, dürfte einerseits der zurückhaltung, die rumänen eigen ist, zuzuschreiben sein, andererseits der dortigen überlegung, daß der sLAnZk ja die busse nicht verkauft hat, mithin dürften die freundlichen rumänen sich gedacht haben, sie wollen mich nicht behelligen.

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manni · Goldene Weichen des Users:

Runde 1 ist eröffnet. Im südseitigen Eck, für die LiebhaberInnen der Hochflur-Raffeln: deeeeer ssllllaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAaaanzk. Im nordseitigen Eck für deren Gegner: aaaaaaAAAAAAAAADMIIIIIiiiiiiii.

*gong* !

Obusfahrerin · Deine Goldenen Weichen:

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manni · Goldene Weichen des Users:

Btw, bevor hier Blut, Schweiß, Zähne und Ohrbrösel fliegen, möchte ich noch anmerken, dass ich glaube, dass die Raffel auf dem zweiten Foto dort nur abgestellt ist. Dauerbetrieb würde der Hilfsdiesel nämlich AFAIK nicht verkraften, der würde der/m FahrerIn nach einer Stunde um die Ohren fliegen.

sLAnZk · Goldene Weichen des Users:

eben. ein weiteres argument dafür, daß der admiral, und zwar nicht, weil er es nicht könnte, sondern vielmehr, weil er sich durch irgendwelche oberflächlich auftretende dinge, wie es wartungsmängel oder gewöhnlicher verschleiß eben sind, vom tiefen wesen, der ewigen schönheit und dem freudebringenden charakter (namentlich ihrer hohen eckigkeit) der gräflichen hochflur-wagen ablenken hat lassen.

ich bin also auch vorbereitet. your call.

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Obusfahrerin · Deine Goldenen Weichen:

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radub · Goldene Weichen des Users:

Hello! My name is Radu Bialus (radub on http://trolleybus.3xforum.ro) and I'm from Iasi, Romania. Please forgive me that I'm writing in English, but although I understand German, I don't master it that well. I discovered your forum thanks to Manni. I read your discussion above about Brasov and I'd like to add a few things.

The 30-Million-Euro loan obtained from EBRD (European Bank for Reconstruction and Development) will be used for street reconstruction AND for the complete replacement of Brasov's bus fleet with NEW vehicles. They already bought 15 NEW "MAZ 103" from Minsk Automobile Plant (МИНСКИЙ АВТОМОБИЛЬНЫЙ ЗАВОД: http://www.maz.com.by/index.php/en/catalog/view_item/117). Other 30 new MAZ 103 buses will be delivered in August. They plan to purchase a total of 130 MAZ buses until the first half of 2008. Those recently bought are equipped with Euro 2 engines, the others will be Euro 3 compatible. They all are low-floor buses. However, the mayor's decision to remove all electrical means of transportation is - to put it mildly - not wise at all. The administrator of our forum sent a letter of protest to Brasov's mayor and now we all are waiting for an answer to see what's to be done next.

I would also like to speak a little about the public transportation system in Iasi (the city I live in). It mainly relies on electrical vehicles (trams and trolleybuses). The trams run on 1000 mm gauge (there are only two more cities in Romania with 1000 mm gauge: Arad and Sibiu; the others have 1435 mm gauge). Iasi has got the second large tram network in Romania (67 km) after the capital, Bucharest. The tram fleet consists of 26 Tatra T4R bought as new by the end of the 70's (originally there were 70), 25 (originally 27) Tatra T4D bought second-hand from Halle (Germany) in 1998, 25 Esslingen GT4 bought second-hand from Stuttgart (Germany) in 1998, 27 Esslingen GT4 bought second-hand from Halle (Germany) in 2003, 10 Esslingen GT4 bought second-hand from Augsburg (Germany) in 2004, 10 DWM ST7 and 6 DWM ST8 bought second-hand from Darmstadt (Germany) in 1998, 11 (originally 14) MAN GT5 bought second-hand from Augsburg (Germany) in 2001 and 9 Be 4/4 offered by Bernmobil Bern (Switzerland) in 2003. As you can see, we rely on second-hand trams, which came in good condition. This state of things will last until the rail is replaced. That's why I want to ask you about the situation of your Duewag and Lohner trams. Are they going to be replaced with new ones? Please excuse my forwardness. I'm asking you this in non-official quality, but I'd like to establish a connection between our transportation unit (RATP) and yours. I forgot to mention that trams have been running in Iasi since 1898. There's one more thing to be said about RATP: they have a restauration team lead by eng. Dorian Geba. Maybe you've heard about them - they restaured several trams from Wien belonging to Mariazell Museum. They were highly appreciated and they are now working on a new project with the same museum.

As for the trolleybuses, we have 39 vehicles (28 Romanian DAC 117EA, Rocar 217E, Rocar 212E, Rocar E312 and 11 Skoda bought second-hand from Brno and Plzen, Czech Republic) running on 3 routes (there were 6 until 1996, but 3 of them were closed).

The bus fleet in Iasi consists of 16 Ikarus 260 and 263 bought from Germany in 1996. That's the situation now, but at the end of the '90s we had more than 140 buses. RATP has recently bought 50 new low-floor MAZ 103 with Euro 3 engines from Minsk and they are going to buy more. Like in Brasov, the Iasi municipality intended to give up using trolleybuses, but our protest stopped them for now. However, we admit there is great need for new trolleybuses (or at least second-hand vehicles in good condition).

Trams and trolleybuses must remain the main means of transportation and we are desperately fighting for this.

Thank you for your patience and please forgive me for posting such a long message! We are waiting for you on http://trolleybus.3xforum.ro . You can find images with means of transportation in Romania at http://trolleybus.3x.ro .

(Editiert von radub am 12.07.2005 08:33)

sLAnZk · Goldene Weichen des Users:

hi there radu, thank you very much for your ample and interesting information about Romanian urban transit, and reading your posting should show me what a forum like manni's should be for: for sharing information and not for fighting useless combat on a topic like whether our old gräf&stift trolleys are beautiful or not (we are doing this for fun, of course, but nonetheless it should make us think). i hope they will be in use in Brasov for some decades or, which would be even better, will be replaced in a few years already by new low-floor ones, ongoing recovery of Romanian economy making this possible.

hoping to read something interesting again soon...

the sLAnZk

the website works well... one just needs to delete the . after the url in the link in the posting... cool pictures

(Editiert von sLAnZk am 11.07.2005 20:21)

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radub · Goldene Weichen des Users:

Of course, any new piece of information will be posted (by me or by members of our forum who live in Brasov; as I said, I live in Iasi and my information about Brasov comes from my forum friends and media). Discussions about and demonstrative pictures with Brasov's means of transportation are located at: http://trolleybus.3xforum.ro/topic/20/judetul_BRASOV . Other pictures from Brasov: http://www.brasovfoto.3x.ro .

You can find discussions (unfortunately, most of them in Romanian) about the public transportation system in Iasi and demonstrative pictures at: http://trolleybus.3xforum.ro/topic/14/judetul_IASI/ Comparative pictures of second-hand trams brought in Iasi from Germany and Switzerland (how they looked like at home and their situation now) can be found at: http://trolleybus.3xforum.ro/post/116/1/Vagoanele_second-hand_la_ele_acasa_si_la_noi/ . Full size pictures from Iasi: http://www.iasi1.3x.ro/ .

Thank you again!

Radu

(Editiert von radub am 12.07.2005 09:37)

manni · Goldene Weichen des Users:

Hi Radu,

thanks for your posting and welcome here at the Inntram-Forum!
Sorry for my delay, but I've been busy making holidays this week.

Quote:

The 30-Million-Euro loan obtained from EBRD (European Bank for Reconstruction and Development) will be used for street reconstruction AND for the complete replacement of Brasov's bus fleet with NEW vehicles. (snip) However, the mayor's decision to remove all electrical means of transportation is - to put it mildly - not wise at all. The administrator of our forum sent a letter of protest to Brasov's mayor and now we all are waiting for an answer to see what's to be done next.

Do you see any chances to prevent these plans?

Quote:

I would also like to speak a little about the public transportation system in Iasi (the city I live in). It mainly relies on electrical vehicles (trams and trolleybuses). The trams run on 1000 mm gauge (there are only two more cities in Romania with 1000 mm gauge: Arad and Sibiu; the others have 1435 mm gauge). Iasi has got the second large tram network in Romania (67 km) after the capital, Bucharest. The tram fleet consists of 26 Tatra T4R bought as new by the end of the 70's (originally there were 70), 25 (originally 27) Tatra T4D bought second-hand from Halle (Germany) in 1998, 25 Esslingen GT4 bought second-hand from Stuttgart (Germany) in 1998, 27 Esslingen GT4 bought second-hand from Halle (Germany) in 2003, 10 Esslingen GT4 bought second-hand from Augsburg (Germany) in 2004, 10 DWM ST7 and 6 DWM ST8 bought second-hand from Darmstadt (Germany) in 1998, 11 (originally 14) MAN GT5 bought second-hand from Augsburg (Germany) in 2001 and 9 Be 4/4 offered by Bernmobil Bern (Switzerland) in 2003. As you can see, we rely on second-hand trams, which came in good condition. This state of things will last until the rail is replaced. That's why I want to ask you about the situation of your Duewag and Lohner trams. Are they going to be replaced with new ones? Please excuse my forwardness. I'm asking you this in non-official quality, but I'd like to establish a connection between our transportation unit (RATP) and yours. I forgot to mention that trams have been running in Iasi since 1898.

I hope that the necessary money can be raised to keep the electrical system - it's not reasonable at all to replace such a big electrical system with "lower means of transportation", say, buses... IMO, the European Union really should finance what needs to be financed instead of letting systems go down like the one in Brasov.
In Innsbruck, a total of 44 to 46 new trams will be bought (22 for the current network and the rest for network extensions to be built during the next 10 years). We are waiting for the decision who will build and deliver them since May, politicians and the IVB promised to have the first low-floor trams in operation by the end of 2006. Most likely, we will get Bombardier Flexity trams.
Rumours say that the DÜWAG and Lohner trams then could be sold to Arad, but, on the other hand, the used car market may offer better and newer trams meanwhile, so it is also possible that they will be just scrapped. However, during the next 7 to 8 years, there will still stay old trams in stock since some additional trams will be needed during peak times.
If RATP wants to contact the IVB about the Lohner and DÜWAG cars, the contact person is IVB chief executive officer Martin Baltes, who is reachable via office@ivb.at .

Quote:

There's one more thing to be said about RATP: they have a restauration team lead by eng. Dorian Geba. Maybe you've heard about them - they restaured several trams from Wien belonging to Mariazell Museum. They were highly appreciated and they are now working on a new project with the same museum.

Oh... yes, I've recently been to the Mariazell tramway museum, and they told me about that.

Quote:

Trams and trolleybuses must remain the main means of transportation and we are desperately fighting for this.

Hopefully you are successful... back in 1975, here in Innsbruck they wanted to shut down the tram network as well... but the city's people, supported by the media, were able to prevent this back then, and instead of shutting down the network they bought the used cars from Bielefeld and Hagen then and even improved services by intruducing a 6-minute headway on lines 1 and 3 (meanwhile it's again expaned to 7,5 min) and modernizing lines 6 and STB.
Back in 1999, it didn't look too good as well... but fortunately, the city government decided to keep the tram and to start dealing with the country and federal governments for financial help, in the end of 2004 they finally signed a first €200M contract to extend the network and buy low-floor trams, a second contract about €80M for further extensions and trams is to be awaited in a few years.
So I think it makes sense and it can lead to success doing everything possible to keep and improve a tram system and to show the political leaders the benefits of it.

Quote:

Thank you for your patience and please forgive me for posting such a long message! We are waiting for you on http://trolleybus.3xforum.ro .

Maybe we can establish a lasting connection - please tell me if we (AIN - Arbeitsgemeinschaft Innsbrucker Nahverkehr) can help you in any manner. We could i.e. provide materials (in German language) demonstrating the benefits - also financial benefits and positive influences on local economy - of modern tram systems.
Did you already try to work with EU instances? Probably there could money be raised for keeping and improving the tram system in Iasi (and Brasov). Actually, local politicians should know what to do, but they sometimes just don't know _anything_...

Hope to hear soon again from you!

Marcus Lehmann · Goldene Weichen des Users:

Hi Leute,

wie schon anders wo im Forum geschrieben werde ich dieses Jahr mal nach Brasov fahren und dabei auch versuchen die ehem. insbrucker O-busse abzulichten die Bilder werde ich dann Manni als CD zukommen lassen. Dmit der die dann auf den Server packen kann.

Daumendrücken das die meisten der ehem Innsbrucker O-Busse noch laufen, aber ich bin guter hoffnung das die Wagen nach den ende des Betriebes in Brasov noch wo anders in Rumänien eine Zulunft haben werden, da es ja noch einige O-busbetriebe dort gibt. Und die werden schon die Fahrzeuge andaptieren können. Selbst die O-Busse aus Lugano mit einer ganz anderen Spannung wurden in Brasov ans laufen gebracht

Ein Essener auf reisen

manni · Goldene Weichen des Users:

http://ftp.strassenbahn.tk:81/inntram-public-forum/TB0813-005-IesireTraseuFagetpebaterii-20050604.JPG

Dieses Bild in hoher Auflösung hat mir bereits vor einiger Zeit Laurentiu Brandiosiu aus Brasov zugeschickt. Es zeigt einen Gräf Stiftula, der lt. dem Bildautor in seiner neuen Heimat gerade mit dem Hilfsantrieb unterwegs ist.
Hat man in Brasov unsere Nummerierung übernommen?

(Editiert von manni am 18.10.2005 21:04)

Obusfahrerin · Deine Goldenen Weichen:

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Thema: Graf Dracula fährt Gräf & Stift